Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Ditto, Lunala, Iron Treads and Terapagos Dropped)

https://pokepast.es/107fb9bb4e666a1c It's time, stall is finally a real thing here!
I like that Arceus set. I keep seeing Garg on stall teams for this tier, how much value are you getting from it defensively? I find it hard to justify & fit given that heal bell is essential anyway, rock is not great without Tera, salt cure goes away with switch, and it doesn't offer wish regenerator or knock - are there enough immunes in the tier that you find salt cure preferable to toxic or Tspikes Glowking? Or a wish passer that compresses either regenerator or knock off? Tspikes almost requires fitting knock though which I find challenging.
 
I like that Arceus set. I keep seeing Garg on stall teams for this tier, how much value are you getting from it defensively? I find it hard to justify & fit given that heal bell is essential anyway, rock is not great without Tera, salt cure goes away with switch, and it doesn't offer wish regenerator or knock - are there enough immunes in the tier that you find salt cure preferable to toxic or Tspikes Glowking? Or a wish passer that compresses either regenerator or knock off? Tspikes almost requires fitting knock though which I find challenging.
Nobody runs cloak, some teams just fold immediately upon you clicking iron defense + cure. It can be a tera hog but is absolutely worth for certain matchups it just wins at preview
 
Stored Power: The elephant in the room


I’m gonna lead with a few disclaimers:


-I am by no means a competitive authority
-I swing between 1100s and 1300s on ladder
-I am not advocating for the ban of stored power just venting my frustrations I guess



:Espathra: STORED POWER :Espathra:



You love it. You hate it. You live by it. You die by it. Stored Power needs no explanation to those who’ve played the ladder for three seconds. While Espathra is the best exemplification of this move, a few other mons have used it this past month.


98% of Espathras run it, as do 91% of Arceus-Psychics, 48% of Arceus-Fightings, 35% of Cresselias, 19% of Magearnas, and a flurry of the other legal Arceus formes use it as well.


Stored Power sets are fairly straightforward: Calm Mind, other boosting method, Fairy coverage, and Stored Power. On the surface, it looks relatively tame; get in on the threat and Roar it out or confront it head on. However, if you can’t significantly chip down the Stored Power user, it becomes easy for them to at least claim a kill or at most six. Here’s an example with Blissey against Espathra. Espathra can get a calm mind boost on switch and a second one before Blissey gets 27% off thanks to Seismic Toss.


+2 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 178-210 (24.9 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO


This is SpDef Blissey, one of the bulkiest SpDef answers in the tier, if not the bulkiest. One more speed boost and it’s outdamaging Blissey, one more Calm Mind and it can barely outheal Espathra’s attack.


“Ok but what if Blissey Tera Darks?”


Bad use of a Tera imo but if you’re using a teamslot to specifically counter one meta threat that’s not a good sign. And Espathra can just…switch. Now you have a slightly weaker Blissey. Congrats.


I’ve said Espathra so far but Magearna and the Arceus patrol do most of the same things. Set up, Stored Power, Fairy coverage in case. So how do you deal with Stored Power, then?


:Dialga: The Time Lord
:Dialga-Origin: …and his left cousin I guess


Dialga has a great niche as a bulky attacker with the potential to form a defensive core. While it takes neutral to fairy moves, Dazzling Gleam (the stronger coverage option, compared to Draining Kiss) is easily shrugged away thanks to Dialga’s 100/100 bulk and with most sets running Max HP. Provided a Stored Power isn’t already absurdly strong, Dialga can both switch in and phaze out the threat either with Dragon Tail or Roar.


:Clefable: Clefable…or really only a specific kind of Clefable


By a specific kind I am referring to Max HP Max SpDef calm Clefable. Oh and it needs to run Calm Mind or Cosmic Power if it actually wants to threaten out the Stored Power user.


:Magearna: Magearna…or any other bulky steel.


Same as Dialga except without the phazing thing. Hope you have a way to damage it back though.


:Palafin-Hero: Jet Punch


You wonder why this guy is everywhere? This is why: 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 152 HP / 244+ Def Espathra: 250-296 (67.7 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Easy 2HKOs to most threats…if it itself can live. And yes this does more than banded DNite ESpeed.


:Arceus-Dark: Praying to the Gods


Not much to say here honestly. Take all the chip you can get or Roar.


Not an inclusive list btw so don’t be like “Taunt/Encore” I know.



Stored Power limits team building and creates scenarios where bad matchups can lead to huge upsets. Anecdotally, I at 1100s can beat people on the ladder if Magearna gets two turns to set up. There are +30 or -40 points swings in games. Sure it has a lot to do with the nature of set up sweepers in the meta as well but Stored Power is the extra push in my opinion. Makes you wonder why it’s so broken here and not in normal Ubers.
 
This isn’t RUbers or ZUbers, the whole point of this tier is to give things like terrible Arceus forms a home where they are GOOD. This is not OU, there really needs to be something that breaks the tier like Caly-S to deserve a ban from an Ubers format.
Where would you put the threshold at? Just curious. There is stuff banned from this tier for reasons other than being Ubers by usage, so I don't think it's at the same level as Caly-S. Last Respects wasn't a meta-warping mandatory pick that the whole tier revolved around, but it got banned and everyone seems pretty okay with that.
 
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Let me think about the potential bans and unbans.

:Zacian: : 5. This pokémon is just blalantly overpowered. More natural bulk than Magearna, faster than everything but Dragapult, great coverage and in general a pokémon who will sweep everything. Dondozo might held it back a bit but dondozo is very vulnerable to special attackers, speciallay ones with draco meteor, and lacks reliable recovery. Just a meta-warping dog who is causing a stranglehold in teambuilding, specially on lower ladder because it's so punishing.

:Palkia-Origin: : 3. More manegeable than expected... but only because Zacian is in the tier and revenge kills it, while specially defensive magearna also helps. The numbers say it is fine yet it could easily become problematic in the near future, but we should not act on supositions. Still, it's not like Palkia-Origin is so overpowered it denies regular Palkia being used, is just that getting 20 speed and 20% boost are usually a more powerful boost of 50% of either but being locked.

:Arceus-Fire: : 2. This pokémon would be busted if it could use boots. It cannot and therefore isn't a problem in the slightest if you have one of the many great water types the tier has. Seriously, those tour numbers atm are just pathetic (Not as much as Rillaboom's though... Why does people use it without Sneasler?). Maybe if Palkia gets banned Arceus-Fire becomes a problem, but I doubt it.

:Arceus-Poison: : 2. It is genuinely a non-issue. It is fast and bulky, but poison is terrible on offense and people is suceeding quite well at checking this pokémon via steel and ground. I might be understimating it

Shadow tag/Arena Trap: 1. While shadow tag and Arena trap have has been historically opressive, gen 9 nerfed them severely with Terastalization. It's very easy to play around this mechanic in practice because dugtrio wants to trap stuff like fire or steel types, which can just use tera to escape their ground weakness or even use the weak, frail dugtrio as setup fodder, and tera is definitely worth using if you end up in a 5v6. Of those 2 concepts of trapping, Gothitelle's shadow tag might end up being more problematic, but there's no solid proof of it. This is UBERS UU, so we shouldn't just ban stuff with bad playpatterns, but either OP strats or awful experiences who ocurr in a regular basis.

Shed Tail: 4. This on the other hand does qualify as frequent bad experience. Shed tail caused lots of issues back in 2023 Gen 9 OU, and I would say it causes even more problems here, where the whole tier seems to revolve around Shed Tail. While the controversial Espathra seems to not been an issue due to the powerlevel of UUbers, many of the best pokémon who are being asked here are indeed shed tail users. The only reason I'm not asking for quickban is because maybe the issue is Zacian being busted.

:Arceus-Electric: : 3. I'm not sure if it's a good or bad idea. A fast, bulky Electric type in a tier defined by not a lot of ground types and many waters might turn opressive, but on the other hand, people is starting to use ground types because of Magearna and Arceus forms, and Both Landorus and regular Ursaluna have proven worth using.

:Arceus-Flying: : 4. Flying isn't really a concern because it's relatively straightforward to handle due to that rock weakness, Magearna being so common and many top tiers being able to bring on Ice or electric coverage. Not really able to see how it would become so problematic. Maybe it's still busted but

:Shaymin-Sky: : 1. I don't like gambling, and Shaymin's problems have not disappeared. In theory it should be a downgrade of Arceus-Flying due to having less everything but speed, but Shaymin is still faster than Arceus and can still flinch you to death with Serene grace air slash, in a meta not very keen on covert cloak due to only shaymin requiring it.

Shadow tag (New): 3. Remember when I said "Of the two Gothitelle might end up more problematic?"... Yup, now I've seen games of Gothitelle in action dragging on a game without even doing anything, against the leader of this tier nonetheless. Unlike Dugtrio who plays a mostly fair fight and what I've said about Tera is still true, Gothitelle is more akin to Funbro, just pure PP stalling or stall then sweep with stored power. Is still not the biggest issue the tier has but something to keep eyes upon to see if it becomes banworthy.

In short, my philosophy is not acting based on supositions, but on relatively frequent ocurrances who do damage the play experience. A big reason Gen 9 OU feels like a mess is due to overreliance on quickbans and targeting the wrong pokémon, acting oftentimes before there's even proper counterplay developed aka meta evolution, which ends up wasting precious time who could've been used in banning Gholdengo and making the Volcarona ban democratic.

PS: Why is Ursaluna good in UUbers but so mediocre in OU? Seriously, I'm recollecting tour data and I'm seeing Ursaluna both being more popular and winning more than bloodmoon, the OU-banworthy version, at least in the tour results.

PPS: I've changed my mind about Shadow tag. from 1 to 3. Kinesquared definitely got a miserable game 1 of round 1.
 
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Most Arceus forms will be overpowered because of Taunt / Judgement / Calm Mind / Recover sets., which has an EXTREMELY limited pool of viable counterplay. Forms like Flying and Steel shouldn't be allowed for this reason. Arceus-Electric seems like a more eligible candidate to be dropped since its STAB is blanked by Ground-Types & Ground-Teras, forcing it to run Ice Beam and making phazers more reliable as counterplay.
 

KineSquared

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PS: Why is Ursaluna good in UUbers but so mediocre in OU? Seriously, I'm recollecting tour data and I'm seeing Ursaluna both being more popular and winning more than bloodmoon, the OU-banworthy version, at least in the tour results.
I think a huge part of it is honestly me tbh. I created one of the first really strong and consistent teams in the october/early november meta in a pure trick room ursaluna team. Without corviknight or giratina ursaluna can just power through anything, and I ran crunch+substitute to play around mind games of switching, teras, and ghost types. Ursaluna also got a huge boost when people realized it can outspeed neutral magearna if it invests in speed.
 

Dead by Daylight

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hello Kine, glad to see this project made it off of r/stunfisk and onto Smogon!

with that being said, I feel that Magcargo's point about how many Arceus forms can just run mono-Judgment is a bit worrying. I do think, though, that stuff like Arc-Electric shouldn't be allowed since while yes, you do get blanked by Ground-types, it's pretty hard to stop Arc-Electric without Dialga formes or Ground-types, which can both be taken advantage of by stuff like Palafin and Zacian.
 

vesp

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Stored Power limits team building and creates scenarios where bad matchups can lead to huge upsets. Anecdotally, I at 1100s can beat people on the ladder if Magearna gets two turns to set up. There are +30 or -40 points swings in games. Sure it has a lot to do with the nature of set up sweepers in the meta as well but Stored Power is the extra push in my opinion. Makes you wonder why it’s so broken here and not in normal Ubers.
Most veteran players agree with me when I say this, stored power Magearna sucks, roar ruins it, and it's very weak before quite a few boosts, espathra only beats bad teams or poor play. Stored power is by no means broken in the tier, 1100s is like, very very low ladder, you shouldn't expect it to be a representation of the metagame, especially since so many samples are now outdated. It's not broken here at all and it's certainly not the "Elephant in the Room" there are far more problematic Pokemon than Stored Power. Espathra loses to most top mons, encore Magearna beats it, roar on Arceus-Poison beats it as does Ekiller arceus poison, Arceus-Fire blasts it with a powerful stab Flare Blitz, Arceus-Dark does dark type stuff, and Zacian clicks buttons on Espathra, Palkia-Origin raw OHKOs with tera water pump even through +1 SpD with rocks. Espathra needs quite a few turns to beat any of these threats, which is difficult when your bulk is 95/60/60. All stored power sweepers lack immediate power, as a result, roar is an easy way to beat them as they cannot deal significant damage without quite a few boosts.
 
Makes you wonder why it’s so broken here and not in normal Ubers.
well, the simple answer is: because it isn't. many of the most commonly-run mons in the meta are capable of phazing, encore, taunt, or just simply breaking the opponent before it can set up, and the users tend to not be very impressive or not have room for it. for example:
:espathra:
espathra is very weak and needs shed tail support to accomplish anything, which is better given to other, bulkier setup mons who might actually be able to get more than one turn out of the sub. it also lacks immediate breaking power after a single calm mind, which leads to stuff like gira-a and especially dialga being able to come in while espathra calms its mind and roar it out after tanking a stored power (or, more likely, a dazzling gleam)
:magearna:
magearna has a million better sets than stored power, including several sets that can beat stored power 1v1, and statistically you should expect to see magearna more than half the time so a lot of magearna sets are now putting more emphasis on beating other magearnas, making it even more difficult for stored power magearna to get things done
:clefable:
clefable is usually not running stored power, since it really needs to preserve its moveslots for more important stuff; besides, it's got a bad matchup against a lot of top threats and can't store its power quickly enough to take them out
:arceus:
and now we come to the arceus forms, which i'll lightning-round:
  • fire: its forte is physical setup, which stored power is obviously not good on
  • poison: between poison stab, ground coverage, a setup move, and recover, poisonceus doesn't have room for stored power on its best sets. it's versatile enough that you can slap basically any four moves onto it, but stored power usually isn't one of those moves
  • grass: the only reason people run this is to check palkia-o
  • dark: one of the best answers to stored power in the meta. also one of the most amenable to cosmic power setup, but the attacks it usually runs on that are foul play and body press, not stored power
  • dragon: prefers either being dialga jr or dragonite jr
  • fighting: one of the best blood god (cosmic power + stored power + body press + recover) users due to getting stab on body press and a better defensive typing than psychic, but it still needs too much time to get going and lets gira-a in for free
  • psychic: the best arceus form to run stored power with because you get stab from it. unfortunately, it still lets gira-a in for free before you set up, the set is telegraphed by the fact that you're running arceus-psychic, and using it comes at the cost of not being able to use arceus-fire or -poison, which vastly outclass everything else on this list
  • the rest of them: not relevant enough to mention
no other stored power users are really worth mentioning here, except maybe hatterene, who doesn't even run it anymore. basically, just like in ou and every other tier, stored power isn't broken
 
PS: Why is Ursaluna good in UUbers but so mediocre in OU? Seriously, I'm recollecting tour data and I'm seeing Ursaluna both being more popular and winning more than bloodmoon, the OU-banworthy version, at least in the tour results.
It has amazing TR support in Magearna and Dialga, Magearna has VS and both have eject pack pivoting with fluer cannon and draco respectively so TR is a lot easier to use vs in OU where you've only got chilly Glowking to pivot with and the rest is healing wish.

Ursaluna was busted in OU when Magearna was legal.
 
I think a huge part of it is honestly me tbh. I created one of the first really strong and consistent teams in the october/early november meta in a pure trick room ursaluna team. Without corviknight or giratina ursaluna can just power through anything, and I ran crunch+substitute to play around mind games of switching, teras, and ghost types. Ursaluna also got a huge boost when people realized it can outspeed neutral magearna if it invests in speed.
That being said, Ursaluna is actually performing well in the tour. Let me guess, your team was Arceus-Dragon/ Magearna/ Rillaboom/ Sneasler/ Ursaluna/ Zamazenta-Crowned Hero. It's by far the most common team with Ursaluna with 7 users out of 182 atm, but the ratio is suggesting it's just a good pokémon when paired with offensive magearna, considering the other 10 usages also had a roughly equal WR. Every Ursaluna had Magearna though.

In short, Ursaluna is good in UUbers because semi-room teams work in this tier due to Magearna being so good, and normal Ursaluna is more efficient (Not really preferred, since both are equally as popular) due to higher bulk and being physical, meaning the bear is not redundant in role when paired alongside the mandatory Magearna and the common Dialga that are on those teams. Glad Desmond the MoonBear has a solid niche who should in theory keep Arceus-Fire in check (Not counter, just check). Maybe should have used that instead of my janky Dragonite team.
 
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njnp

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That being said, Ursaluna is actually performing well in the tour. Let me guess, your team was Arceus-Dragon/ Magearna/ Rillaboom/ Sneasler/ Ursaluna/ Zamazenta-Crowned Hero. It's by far the most common team with Ursaluna with 7 users out of 182 atm, but the ratio is suggesting it's just a good pokémon when paired with offensive magearna, considering the other 10 usages also had a roughly equal WR. Every Ursaluna had Magearna though.

In short, Ursaluna is good in UUbers because semi-room teams work in this tier due to Magearna being so good, and normal Ursaluna is more efficient (Not really preferred, since both are equally as popular) due to higher bulk and being physical, meaning the bear is not redundant in role when paired alongside the mandatory Magearna and the common Dialga that are on those teams. Glad Desmond the MoonBear has a solid niche who should in theory keep Arceus-Fire in check (Not counter, just check). Maybe should have used that instead of my janky Dragonite team.
That's my team, Kine's is a full trick room with Cind Court Change. Both teams showcase Ursaluna's prowess well. As you said Magearna being in the tier is what enables Ursaluna to be so impressive and we had many viable trick room options that aren't passive unlike in OU. Even though the recent drops weren't friendly towards Ursaluna it is still very much a scary presence in the tier.
 
That's my team, Kine's is a full trick room with Cind Court Change. Both teams showcase Ursaluna's prowess well.
And that explains why Cinderace is having a relatively high PR with insane winrate (Wait until Monday when I reveal all the data I've been collecting this week). Thank you for the info... Although it can't be full trick room with a 119 speed Cinderace... because Cinderace rarely pairs up with Ursaluna, just Magearna and Palkia, oftentimes with Landorus, Dondozo and Zamazenta-Crowned.

Even though the recent drops weren't friendly towards Ursaluna it is still very much a scary presence in the tier.
Considering it has a 10-7 record WITH THE BAD DROPS, I don't want to imagine the primal bear in a good day.
 
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Been using :Choice Scarf::Iron-Valiant: and its pretty good. Outspeeds a good number of offensive threats like :Choice Scarf::Landorus:, :Choice Scarf: :Chi-Yu:, :Cyclizar:, and :Palkia-Origin: & is really good at disrupting walls by either Knocking off their :Heavy Duty Boots: or tricking them a :Choice Scarf: (just be sure not to knock off your own tricked :Choice Scarf:). Pair it with Tera Blast Fire :Zacian: for a potent offensive core, as :Zacian: can lure in :Corviknight: quite easily and appreciates :Iron Valiant:'s better match-up vs various defensive Pokemon due to the combination of utility from Trick, Mixed attacking options, and Knock Off. Also pairs well with :Magearna: due to Encore + Trick permanently shutting down certain setup sweepers barring :Arceus:.
 
i've been brainstorming with some of the people in the uubers discord about potential palkia-o answers and i'd like to propose a set that i've been having some thoughts about:

Fezandipiti @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
- Roost

now, you might laugh at first, and you probably should because "fezandipiti" is a hilarious name, but that investment lets him avoid a 2hko from palkia-o hydro pump. if you can bring him in safely—say, on a dragon move—he can take two hydros and 2hko in return with play rough. even if you switch him in on a hydro, you can just spam roost until it misses or runs out, then start playing rough anyway. without earth power (or surf over hydro), palkia-o needs to rely on crits or play rough misses to beat this thing. in fact, even with earth power or surf, bringing fezandipiti in safely will still win you the matchup because earth power does less than hydro pump and surf does even less than that. this set can also serve as a soft check (and i mean very soft) to zacian in certain scenarios. the only move zacian is commonly running that can hit fezandipiti really hard before a swords dance is ground tera blast, which can easily be predicted and blocked with tera flying, allowing you to u-turn out and fish for toxic. psychic fangs and iron head kill fezandipiti dead and are run frequently enough to mention, though, so this is a much riskier matchup than palkia-o. does anyone have any other ideas for scenarios where fezandipiti might be useful? because being able to semi-reliably check palkia-o is pretty damn valuable on its own, and adding on a shaky-but-not-bad matchup against zacian is a nice bonus, but i'm not sure how he stacks up against some of the tier's other top threats. notably, this set can't touch magearna, dialga, or arceus-poison, or even take advantage of toxic chain against them, so this is not a catch-all mon by any means. however, that 30% toxic chance seems pretty potent in a meta full of setup and stall with limited options for passive damage, and we're kinda hurting for palkia-o checks right now

other potential options that were rejected during the brainstorming session but might have potential:
  • assault vest over boots and dual wingbeat over roost, which cuts into longevity a lot but produces an even better matchup against palkia-o if you're aggressive with your hazard control (and have wish support in the back, just in case), helps in other matchups against special breakers because well duh, and dual wingbeat gets you two 30% toxic chances in a turn
  • air balloon over boots and a different tera type, which helps you in the zacian matchup a little bit by not requiring you to drop your fairy and fighting resistances to contend with ground tera blast. the downside is that, well, you can't get hit by any other moves beforehand if you want to use this against ground tera blast, and it doesn't seem that good outside of this specific matchup at all
  • luminous moss over boots, which, after being hit by a hydro pump or surf, allows you to directly challenge palkia-o in the same way that assault vest sets do while retaining the ability to use roost. unfortunately, this only works once, and having it on a u-turn mon turns it from questionable to dumb. maybe it'd work better on a setup set of some sort?
so, what do you all think? i mean, this is a meta where we're using cutiefly and crocalor for their specific properties, i'm sure this can find a niche somewhere
 
i've been brainstorming with some of the people in the uubers discord about potential palkia-o answers and i'd like to propose a set that i've been having some thoughts about:

Fezandipiti @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Play Rough
- Gunk Shot
- U-turn
- Roost

now, you might laugh at first, and you probably should because "fezandipiti" is a hilarious name, but that investment lets him avoid a 2hko from palkia-o hydro pump. if you can bring him in safely—say, on a dragon move—he can take two hydros and 2hko in return with play rough. even if you switch him in on a hydro, you can just spam roost until it misses or runs out, then start playing rough anyway. without earth power (or surf over hydro), palkia-o needs to rely on crits or play rough misses to beat this thing. in fact, even with earth power or surf, bringing fezandipiti in safely will still win you the matchup because earth power does less than hydro pump and surf does even less than that. this set can also serve as a soft check (and i mean very soft) to zacian in certain scenarios. the only move zacian is commonly running that can hit fezandipiti really hard before a swords dance is ground tera blast, which can easily be predicted and blocked with tera flying, allowing you to u-turn out and fish for toxic. psychic fangs and iron head kill fezandipiti dead and are run frequently enough to mention, though, so this is a much riskier matchup than palkia-o. does anyone have any other ideas for scenarios where fezandipiti might be useful? because being able to semi-reliably check palkia-o is pretty damn valuable on its own, and adding on a shaky-but-not-bad matchup against zacian is a nice bonus, but i'm not sure how he stacks up against some of the tier's other top threats. notably, this set can't touch magearna, dialga, or arceus-poison, or even take advantage of toxic chain against them, so this is not a catch-all mon by any means. however, that 30% toxic chance seems pretty potent in a meta full of setup and stall with limited options for passive damage, and we're kinda hurting for palkia-o checks right now

other potential options that were rejected during the brainstorming session but might have potential:
  • assault vest over boots and dual wingbeat over roost, which cuts into longevity a lot but produces an even better matchup against palkia-o if you're aggressive with your hazard control (and have wish support in the back, just in case), helps in other matchups against special breakers because well duh, and dual wingbeat gets you two 30% toxic chances in a turn
  • air balloon over boots and a different tera type, which helps you in the zacian matchup a little bit by not requiring you to drop your fairy and fighting resistances to contend with ground tera blast. the downside is that, well, you can't get hit by any other moves beforehand if you want to use this against ground tera blast, and it doesn't seem that good outside of this specific matchup at all
  • luminous moss over boots, which, after being hit by a hydro pump or surf, allows you to directly challenge palkia-o in the same way that assault vest sets do while retaining the ability to use roost. unfortunately, this only works once, and having it on a u-turn mon turns it from questionable to dumb. maybe it'd work better on a setup set of some sort?
so, what do you all think? i mean, this is a meta where we're using cutiefly and crocalor for their specific properties, i'm sure this can find a niche somewhere
252 SpA Lustrous Globe Palkia-Origin Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Fezandipiti: 148-175 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Palkia-Origin Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Fezandipiti: 136-160 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Fezandipiti Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia-Origin: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it isn't a bad shout by any means

after a bit of optimisation

+1 252 Atk Zacian Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Fezandipiti: 123-145 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
116 Atk Fezandipiti Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian: 162-192 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Lustrous Globe Palkia-Origin Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144+ SpD Fezandipiti: 160-189 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Palkia-Origin Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 144+ SpD Fezandipiti: 146-174 (38.5 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
116 Atk Fezandipiti Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia-Origin: 204-242 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

a mon that checks two of the top metagame threats, is reliable because of roost and has a fourth slot to do what it wants? worth investigating for sure
 

njnp

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Stall Dec 9th


So, what I’ll say about stall is I personally currently find it unhealthy. It is pretty much impossible to cover the various variations of stall. You have stalls built around regen, you have stalls built around trapping, you have stalls built around hazards, and you have stalls built around pressure. What stands out largely to me is you have to survive these stall variations and prepare for all the various threats :arceus: in the metagame. The way I view it when building a team everything from B- to S should be considered. It is unreasonable to expect the player base to be able to contain the likes of Magearna, Palkia-O, Zacian, and various Acres formes while having the means to break the various stall styles. Unlike OU stall, this tier doesn’t have the means of hazard stack + viable knock-off options to potentially gain the upper hand on a stall opponent. The most viable knock-off Pokemon sits @ A- in Roaring Moon (largely only fits 1 playstyle rn) and the move knock-off itself is not as effective as you’d find it to be in other tiers due to the prevalence of Pokemon whose item can’t even be removed. This also is why moves like Trick to help break down the bulkier-sided teams are not prevalent, you lose all momentum if you click trick as your opponent goes to their Arceus.

Let’s now discuss breaking stall. The most popular method is a very uncompetitive one in trapping. Gothitelle :gothitelle: leads the charge in shutting down whatever Pokemon your team needs removed to muscle through the stall team. The most popular Pokemon to trap usually is Dondozo clearing the way and making Pokemon like Tera Zacian, Arceus Fire & More stall enders. The reality is though including Gothitelle on your team comes at a cost. This should come as no shocker, Gothitelle is not a good Pokemon. It finds itself in the ZU tier without trapping to aid it. Don’t get me wrong you see it pop up occasionally in Ubers but it’s only due to….surprise surprise trapping. Even with stall on the rise, this is still mainly a hyper-offensive focused, and fast tier. You will rarely see a team that doesn’t have a Pokemon that crosses 120 speed base. Naturally, Gothitelle finds itself in a lot of matches unable to get a grasp of relevancy which is why until this current rise of stall iteration you’d rarely cross paths with it. You find yourself starting certain matches 5-6 unless you’re facing stall/balance with Gothitelle on your team which is unpleasant in such a power creep metagame.

Next up is “The Set” the set you mainly find on Darkceus :arceus-dark:. The set consists of Taunt, Judgement, Calm Mind, & Recover. This set naturally is hard-walled by Fairies, but the only fairy you’ll commonly find on stall is Clefable. You’re able to stall out Clefable well with poison tera. Unfortunately, though things get tricky with tera fairy Dragon Tail Giratina. If you run into this set on pressure stalls your Darkceus is not going to be able to muscle through stall. Furthermore, if you run Fairyceus you end up taking more damage from Moonblast and you may find yourself in a tricky situation conserving pp. There is also the fact that Poison is just a better overall defensive typing as it resists the strong fairy attacks from Zacian/Magearna with a set that is walled by them. It may be a sacrifice you have to make as the common theme of this discussion is, that you have to sacrifice team structure to handle stall well currently.

Another popular method is mostly luck-based in Palkia-Origin :Palkia-Origin: in the form of Scale Shot. This method was primarily fine when Blisseys were running fully special defensive sets to handle the likes of Lando-I, Chi-Yu, and Walking Wake but with the current landscape of the tier it finds itself leaning on mixed defense evs to handle more alarming and common threats such as Palkia-O. This set applying pressure is also under the assumption that the Blissey is not tera fairy.

Now, there are other unreliable Pokemon like Lando-I, Gholdengo, and Spectrier that can do various damage towards stall and are pretty viable candidates but it’s much easier said than done. You can pick generally not the most viable Pokemon like Ogerpon, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur or even generally not that viable sets like Heavy Duty Boots Taunt Chi-Yu, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Taunt, or Banded Urshifu fact of the matter is generally you’ll find yourself a step behind your opponent in other arch type match ups.

This is not a post calling for action to be done to stall as a council member. This is simply a post detailing the current grip stall has on the metagame and it hasn’t even been fully developed yet.

Thanks For Reading. :heart:
 
This is not a post calling for action to be done to stall as a council member. This is simply a post detailing the current grip stall has on the metagame and it hasn’t even been fully developed yet.
if there was action being considered, what would we even do? i agree that stall is unhealthy right now, but i don't think any single element of stall is making the playstyle unhealthy. it's easy to point to gira-a and dondozo because they're recent additions, but they both get blasted through by several common mons; it's not like this is some sort of universal defensive core that just dropped. and even if there was a simple answer, would it be worth taking? this is an ubers-based tier; it's going to be unhealthy and unbalanced on some level by its very nature. my personal thoughts on tiering here is that it should be done with a much more laissez-faire approach than it is in ou, even if some elements do turn out to be broken or uncompetitive. i can understand if you have a different philosophy considering that you're, y'know, actually on the ou council, but i feel like if any meta should be tiered slowly and sparingly and give consideration to normally invalid arguments like "broken checks broken" and "it's not broken because you can use it too", it should be this one

also, c'mon, give stall a break, it's been suffering in the ou trenches since day 1, let it have this at least
 
Stall being unhealthy is likely more of a product of the offensive power level being too high ironically. H-stack + Knock still goobs stall, but the best most common knock user you'll see is Cyclizar, which does well vs Stall, esp with Regenerator. Outside of that there aren't many options.

Most if the OU stall breakers imo still do well vs stall in UUbers like Iron Valiant and Ogerpon, but have a very difficult time fitting on general teams because of high speed creep. Arceus forms have drastically raised the speed levels of the metagame, making it harder for these Pokemon to not be deadweight in certain MUs, especially as most of the forms will be running recover. Nonetheless, arceus still largely folds to H-Stack, but setting up those layers may be difficult vs a more offensively oriented team.

Others like Ursaluna are paradoxically much easier to fit because of stronger TR options like Magearna.

It does really help that moat teams have access to a really strong cheat button in Gothitelle. That pp stalling set does have application vs a wide range of threats I'd argue, particularly as it can trick scarf onto a do nothing defensive mon like Magearna or Dialga, or an encored setup sweeper like Espathra. Against momentum teams it is really ass, but not all teams well be structured like those.
 

Leo Justice

Ubers UU leader
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Stall Dec 9th


So, what I’ll say about stall is I personally currently find it unhealthy. It is pretty much impossible to cover the various variations of stall. You have stalls built around regen, you have stalls built around trapping, you have stalls built around hazards, and you have stalls built around pressure. What stands out largely to me is you have to survive these stall variations and prepare for all the various threats :arceus: in the metagame. The way I view it when building a team everything from B- to S should be considered. It is unreasonable to expect the player base to be able to contain the likes of Magearna, Palkia-O, Zacian, and various Acres formes while having the means to break the various stall styles. Unlike OU stall, this tier doesn’t have the means of hazard stack + viable knock-off options to potentially gain the upper hand on a stall opponent. The most viable knock-off Pokemon sits @ A- in Roaring Moon (largely only fits 1 playstyle rn) and the move knock-off itself is not as effective as you’d find it to be in other tiers due to the prevalence of Pokemon whose item can’t even be removed. This also is why moves like Trick to help break down the bulkier-sided teams are not prevalent, you lose all momentum if you click trick as your opponent goes to their Arceus.

Let’s now discuss breaking stall. The most popular method is a very uncompetitive one in trapping. Gothitelle :gothitelle: leads the charge in shutting down whatever Pokemon your team needs removed to muscle through the stall team. The most popular Pokemon to trap usually is Dondozo clearing the way and making Pokemon like Tera Zacian, Arceus Fire & More stall enders. The reality is though including Gothitelle on your team comes at a cost. This should come as no shocker, Gothitelle is not a good Pokemon. It finds itself in the ZU tier without trapping to aid it. Don’t get me wrong you see it pop up occasionally in Ubers but it’s only due to….surprise surprise trapping. Even with stall on the rise, this is still mainly a hyper-offensive focused, and fast tier. You will rarely see a team that doesn’t have a Pokemon that crosses 120 speed base. Naturally, Gothitelle finds itself in a lot of matches unable to get a grasp of relevancy which is why until this current rise of stall iteration you’d rarely cross paths with it. You find yourself starting certain matches 5-6 unless you’re facing stall/balance with Gothitelle on your team which is unpleasant in such a power creep metagame.

Next up is “The Set” the set you mainly find on Darkceus :arceus-dark:. The set consists of Taunt, Judgement, Calm Mind, & Recover. This set naturally is hard-walled by Fairies, but the only fairy you’ll commonly find on stall is Clefable. You’re able to stall out Clefable well with poison tera. Unfortunately, though things get tricky with tera fairy Dragon Tail Giratina. If you run into this set on pressure stalls your Darkceus is not going to be able to muscle through stall. Furthermore, if you run Fairyceus you end up taking more damage from Moonblast and you may find yourself in a tricky situation conserving pp. There is also the fact that Poison is just a better overall defensive typing as it resists the strong fairy attacks from Zacian/Magearna with a set that is walled by them. It may be a sacrifice you have to make as the common theme of this discussion is, that you have to sacrifice team structure to handle stall well currently.

Another popular method is mostly luck-based in Palkia-Origin :Palkia-Origin: in the form of Scale Shot. This method was primarily fine when Blisseys were running fully special defensive sets to handle the likes of Lando-I, Chi-Yu, and Walking Wake but with the current landscape of the tier it finds itself leaning on mixed defense evs to handle more alarming and common threats such as Palkia-O. This set applying pressure is also under the assumption that the Blissey is not tera fairy.

Now, there are other unreliable Pokemon like Lando-I, Gholdengo, and Spectrier that can do various damage towards stall and are pretty viable candidates but it’s much easier said than done. You can pick generally not the most viable Pokemon like Ogerpon, Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur or even generally not that viable sets like Heavy Duty Boots Taunt Chi-Yu, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon Taunt, or Banded Urshifu fact of the matter is generally you’ll find yourself a step behind your opponent in other arch type match ups.

This is not a post calling for action to be done to stall as a council member. This is simply a post detailing the current grip stall has on the metagame and it hasn’t even been fully developed yet.

Thanks For Reading. :heart:
I understand the thought behind stall being broken, but my question becomes, what do you do about it? There's three pillars of stall (in my opinion), which are Dondozo, clefable and Giratina. Blissey too but bliss can be more easily beaten than the rest by the thing it supposedly checks (think Landorus-I using focus blast, or Specs Chi-yu, for example). These 3 kind of check so much of the metagame together, Dondozo handling physical threats, Clefable special boosters, and Giratina being a great phaser and being able to support either wall if they're too low or require their HP to be saved for another threat. However, the strength of these pokemon come on their strength as a group and not for their individual merits.

What would you ban of these? Clefable is an OU rank pokemon, with really mediocre stats. Dondozo is another OU ranked pokemon, who has as much momentum as a Shuckle. Banning either of these would result on a huge blow to stall, but it'd also just not make much sense. These pokemon are not good on their own, and are only good because of the synergy between them. They're also extremely weak to hazards and momentum.

So then we take over to Giratina, and it'd be the clear pokemon to ban- yet that doesn't make much sense either. Giratina is one of the pokemon that keep others in check. Pokemon like Arceus poison and fire (more poison than fire) become extremely toxic and unhealthy for the metagame without it. Without them, then it's likely too many people would want to ban Zacian since they lost it's better offensive checks, thus probably resulting on a ban. which means Palkia-O would be next, and so on and so forth.

Giratina itself also has the issue of being some of the best hazard removal on the tier, while also being able to threaten Gholdengo enough to make it run defensive EVs to not get 2hko'd. Additionally, i struggle to find a good argument that Giratina Is broken. Yes, it has 150 120 120 defenses, but it relies on rest, lacks good pressure outside of SE effective moves, has a mediocre ability, and has 4MMS.

This means there is no good pokemon to ban, which now begs the question: what do we do about it? For now, i say let's wait. Let's let the metagame adapt. There will be ways the metagame will change. Certain pokemon will rise, while others will go back. There are pokemon that do very well into stall, like Ogerpon well-spring, or for a Pokemon that's really good, Cyclazar. I do believe stall is a bit too strong, but i do think that people will find it's cracks and then adapt.
 
To be fair a prominent player in OU once mentioned dozo amd garg as actually being OP, banworthy but outshined by offemsive threats. Not saying I'm advocating it but I don't think we have to rule out things bc of how finch runs his tier.

For now using Goth to cripple stall and then barely break through seems to work well enough and we'll see what happens next month.
 

a fairy

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Ubers UU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Magearna           |  253 |  58.56% |  51.78% |
| 2    | Zacian-*           |  188 |  43.52% |  53.19% |
| 3    | Cyclizar           |  126 |  29.17% |  45.24% |
| 4    | Palkia-Origin      |  103 |  23.84% |  49.51% |
| 5    | Arceus-Fire        |   95 |  21.99% |  45.26% |
| 6    | Dialga             |   92 |  21.30% |  54.35% |
| 7    | Palafin            |   89 |  20.60% |  44.94% |
| 7    | Rillaboom          |   89 |  20.60% |  44.94% |
| 9    | Landorus           |   76 |  17.59% |  46.05% |
| 10   | Sneasler           |   74 |  17.13% |  48.65% |
| 11   | Dragapult          |   63 |  14.58% |  55.56% |
| 12   | Chi-Yu             |   61 |  14.12% |  50.82% |
| 13   | Gholdengo          |   59 |  13.66% |  52.54% |
| 14   | Giratina           |   55 |  12.73% |  49.09% |
| 15   | Arceus-Poison      |   53 |  12.27% |  58.49% |
| 16   | Arceus-Grass       |   52 |  12.04% |  55.77% |
| 17   | Garchomp           |   49 |  11.34% |  61.22% |
| 18   | Dondozo            |   48 |  11.11% |  62.50% |
| 19   | Clefable           |   47 |  10.88% |  42.55% |
| 20   | Arceus-Dark        |   44 |  10.19% |  54.55% |
| 21   | Zamazenta-*        |   43 |   9.95% |  46.51% |
| 22   | Roaring Moon       |   41 |   9.49% |  53.66% |
| 23   | Ursaluna           |   39 |   9.03% |  58.97% |
| 24   | Garganacl          |   38 |   8.80% |  57.89% |
| 25   | Dragonite          |   35 |   8.10% |  51.43% |
| 26   | Volcarona          |   33 |   7.64% |  51.52% |
| 26   | Slowking-Galar     |   33 |   7.64% |  48.48% |
| 28   | Spectrier          |   31 |   7.18% |  35.48% |
| 29   | Blissey            |   29 |   6.71% |  55.17% |
| 29   | Espathra           |   29 |   6.71% |  31.03% |
| 31   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |   28 |   6.48% |  32.14% |
| 32   | Cinderace          |   27 |   6.25% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Corviknight        |   27 |   6.25% |  48.15% |
| 34   | Urshifu            |   26 |   6.02% |  26.92% |
| 35   | Cresselia          |   25 |   5.79% |  64.00% |
| 35   | Walking Wake       |   25 |   5.79% |  40.00% |
| 37   | Torkoal            |   23 |   5.32% |  47.83% |
| 38   | Arceus-Dragon      |   21 |   4.86% |  66.67% |
| 39   | Dialga-Origin      |   18 |   4.17% |  44.44% |
| 40   | Iron Moth          |   16 |   3.70% |  56.25% |
| 41   | Hoopa-Unbound      |   14 |   3.24% |  57.14% |
| 41   | Moltres            |   14 |   3.24% |  35.71% |
| 43   | Palkia             |   13 |   3.01% |  53.85% |
| 43   | Alomomola          |   13 |   3.01% |  53.85% |
| 45   | Meowscarada        |   11 |   2.55% |  54.55% |
| 45   | Masquerain         |   11 |   2.55% |  54.55% |
| 45   | Gothitelle         |   11 |   2.55% |  54.55% |
| 48   | Quagsire           |    9 |   2.08% |  66.67% |
| 48   | Arceus-Psychic     |    9 |   2.08% |  55.56% |
| 48   | Milotic            |    9 |   2.08% |  55.56% |
| 48   | Donphan            |    9 |   2.08% |  44.44% |
| 52   | Tornadus-Therian   |    8 |   1.85% |  75.00% |
| 52   | Amoonguss          |    8 |   1.85% |  37.50% |
| 52   | Ninetales-Alola    |    8 |   1.85% |  37.50% |
| 55   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    7 |   1.62% |  28.57% |
| 55   | Klefki             |    7 |   1.62% |  28.57% |
| 57   | Ceruledge          |    6 |   1.39% |  66.67% |
| 57   | Mandibuzz          |    6 |   1.39% |  66.67% |
| 57   | Darkrai            |    6 |   1.39% |  50.00% |
| 57   | Baxcalibur         |    6 |   1.39% |  16.67% |
| 61   | Iron Valiant       |    5 |   1.16% |  80.00% |
| 61   | Gastrodon          |    5 |   1.16% |  40.00% |
| 61   | Tyranitar          |    5 |   1.16% |  20.00% |
| 64   | Heatran            |    4 |   0.93% |  75.00% |
| 64   | Houndstone         |    4 |   0.93% |  25.00% |
| 66   | Crawdaunt          |    3 |   0.69% |  66.67% |
| 66   | Pelipper           |    3 |   0.69% |  66.67% |
| 66   | Regidrago          |    3 |   0.69% |  66.67% |
| 66   | Kommo-o            |    3 |   0.69% |  66.67% |
| 66   | Enamorus           |    3 |   0.69% |  33.33% |
| 66   | Arceus-Bug         |    3 |   0.69% |  33.33% |
| 66   | Mew                |    3 |   0.69% |  33.33% |
| 66   | Espeon             |    3 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Weezing-Galar      |    3 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Sandy Shocks       |    3 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Indeedee           |    3 |   0.69% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Gallade            |    2 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Dugtrio            |    2 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Lilligant-Hisui    |    2 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Arceus-Ice         |    2 |   0.46% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Azumarill          |    2 |   0.46% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Mimikyu            |    2 |   0.46% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Electrode-Hisui    |    2 |   0.46% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Goodra-Hisui       |    2 |   0.46% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Zapdos             |    2 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Spiritomb          |    2 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Armarouge          |    2 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 77   | Gengar             |    2 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Samurott-Hisui     |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Torterra           |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Toedscruel         |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Jirachi            |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Forretress         |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Qwilfish-Hisui     |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Magnezone          |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Ninetales          |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Gligar             |    1 |   0.23% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Hawlucha           |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Zoroark-Hisui      |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Arceus-Fighting    |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Arcanine-Hisui     |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Cloyster           |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Overqwil           |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Arceus-Rock        |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Coalossal          |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Weavile            |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Sableye            |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Sylveon            |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Slither Wing       |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   0.23% |   0.00% |
Moves and Teammates | Combos [4] [5&6] | Leads

Did stats for R1 of the Kickoff tour for those who are curious.
 

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